2011 Thunder Beast Team Challenge

Discussion in 'Matches and Competition' started by Zak Smith, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Competition Dynamics and Thunder Beast Arms Corporation present The
    Nov 4-6, 2011 at the Blue Steel Ranch in Logan, NM

    This match is an extreme test of practical field rifle shooting and its supporting activities. Two-man teams will be required to navigate rugged desert terrain, recognize, locate, range, and engage challenging rifle targets from compromised shooting positions, communicate with their partner and the range officer (RO), and do it under time constraints. This will be a physically-demanding match!

    The match staff have a proven track record of involvement in some of the most challenging and influential 3-Gun, multi-gun, and practical long-range matches of the last ten years, including: the Steel Safari, Practical Rifle Team Challenge, Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, SOF 3-Gun, and the and the United States Marshall's Posse match.

    The venue for the match is the Blue Steel Ranch, near Logan NM. This is the same site where the Steel Safari is held.


    The rest of the details are available on the

  2. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
  3. Ray Sanchez Sales & Demos

    • Instructor
    Ray Sanchez
    This will be kick ass
  4. sky4109 Guest

    I won’t miss this one!
  5. Jeff Resident capitalist

    • Thunder Beast Shooter
    When will the BSR be shut down before the TBTC match? I was asked this yesterday at the SRM and did no have an answer.
  6. Jeff Resident capitalist

    • Thunder Beast Shooter
  7. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Thanks Jeff. I was on the road and couldn't post the answer.
  8. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Here are some questions I was asked recently, with my answers

    The rifle shooter does need a separate carbine for the assault stages.

    The squad in front will not be RO'ing you. You will be RO'd by dedicated RO's much like how the RO's operate at RM3G. Teams will be started at fixed intervals, for example 20 minutes. If you catch up to a team in front of you, they get pre-empted. The stages will be hard enough that some teams will not be able to finish in time. You will lose the opportunity to gain the points on the remaining stages if you time out, but there will be not FTE penalties. If you finish early you will get bonus points equal to a multiple of the number of minutes remaining.

    Yes, we will have several run-n-gun or assault style stages and for the rifle shooter I'm going to intend that he be able to succeed in his role on this stages with an "M4."
  9. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    First, I'd like to thank Ray Sanchez for stepping up to take the position of Assistant Match Director. This is a significant sacrifice for Ray since it means he cannot shoot the match. Based on his overall wins at the 2009 and 2011 Steel Safari, and how we did at the 2006 Practical Rifle Team Challenge, I'm sure he would have stood an excellent chance at this match.

    Ray and I scouted the property this weekend and located the sites for the field and gully/assault stages, as well as the night stages. No stage changes will be made until the week prior to the match (when the range/property is closed to shooting), and you can still shoot on the old 2011 Steel Safari courses and targets until then. Additionally, the new shoot/stage locations will be kept secret known only by the GPS locations in my data book, until I set them the week of the match.


    There will be three "field stages" for rifle and carbine. These will be comprised of approx 5 shoot stations at which the carbine shooter will have to clear his targets before the rifle shooter can engage his targets. The ground distance covered on these courses will be approx 1 - 1.5 miles with shoot stations interspersed along the trail. These stages will be scored with a point system that rewards first-round rifle hits and carbine hits (multiple rounds allowed; smaller point value). There will be bonus points available for each minute the team finishes the stage early. Stations you don't get to will not incur any "FTE" penalties, you just lose the points you could have earned on them.

    There will be three gully/assault stages for carbine & carbine. These will be mostly paper targets with steel gong "stop plates." We were expecting these to be short, but what we found was an extensive and deep gully system, so these gully/assault stages will be pretty long, with possibly as many as 50 targets in a single stage, and movement as far as 350 yards. These will have "almost" 360 degree fields of fire. Engagement distances will be 60 yards and less. Paper targets will require one A hit or two B/C hits, or 4 D hits to neutralize. Scoring will be time plus penalties, similar to how RM3G and our local 3Gun scores stages. Due to the increased round count on these stages, I may have to revise upwards the recommend carbine round count for the match. Stay tuned on that note.

    There will be one "teamwork exercise" stage at a fixed location with KD targets.

    There will be two night stages. In one, the carbine shooter will shoot and the rifle shooter will do support/communications tasks. In the other, the rifle shooter will shoot and the carbine shooter will do support tasks.

    Total nine stages.

    Match scoring-

    Stage scores will be normalized to 100 match points, where the best score on a stage will receive 100 match points and all trailing team scores will get a fraction of 100 match points based on their performance relative to the stage-winning team. For example, if Team A earns 180 points on a stage and is the stage winner, but Team B earns 135 points, Team A would receive 100 match points and Team B would receive 75 match points (135/180 = 75%). The exception is that the 3 long field courses for rifle+carbine will be worth double points, so 200 instead of 100. If the same team won every single stage they would end up with 1,200 match points.

    As a teaser, here are two photos of some of the areas
  10. Ray Sanchez Sales & Demos

    • Instructor
    Ray Sanchez
    The assault stages are going to be very interesting
  11. Jeff Resident capitalist

    • Thunder Beast Shooter
    How about a bit more detail Raydog...?
  12. Ray Sanchez Sales & Demos

    • Instructor
    Ray Sanchez
    We weren't expecting what we found when scouting the gullies. Being 15' deep in a gully several hundred yards long with turns and cool terrain is going to make for some shooting that most have never been able to do in a natural setting.
  13. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    To clarify, this means that if you don't have two B/C hits or one A hit, you need 4 hits on the target anywhere including the D zone.
  14. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    This may be subject to slight changes based on final stage setup, but it's pretty solid

    FIELD 1-3: Proceed to staging area for respective stage at least 30 minutes prior to your schedule shoot time. Check in with the stagemaster. You must be ready to start the stage as soon as your RO is ready.

    PROCEDURE AND SCORING FIELD COURSES: Each field course consists of five "transit" routes and five shoot stations. Team members have to be within arms' reach distance of each other whenever shooting. No retreating on the course.

    Teams get one hour from the start signal to complete each field course. The RO keeps official time.

    Firearms must be completely unloaded while moving from station to station. Rifle/carbine may be loaded immediately prior to engaging the respective target array, and firearm must be pointed at target array before a round is chambered.

    The target array for the station will be designated by a left and right limit flag: all targets for the station will be visible when standing directly over the position marker. Before the rifle shooter can engage any targets, the carbine shooter must engage three targets (his choice which three of the up to 6 visible targets). The team will incur a 1 point penalty (-1) per target un-hit by the carbine shooter (up to 3). Carbine hits do not change the team's score (carbine hit made = +0). The team will incur an additional 1 point penalty (-1) per target not engaged by the carbine shooter if he does not engage 3 targets before the rifle shooter begins. There is no limit to the number of rounds the carbine shooter can use to hit his 3 targets.

    Once the carbine shooter is finished, the rifle shooter may engage the six targets. Some stations will be a single array of 6 targets to be shot from one shoot position; some stations will have two shoot positions and the same 3 targets will be engaged from both for a total of 6 engagements. For "2x3" stations, the carbine shooter only engages at the first position. The rifle shooter may only engage each target with one round. The team earns a point for each rifle hit. Duplicate shots on the same target by the rifle shooter will count as a miss on another target on the array. (IE, if he shoots twice at target #5, he cannot engage #6). Any target not engaged by the rifle shooter before the team leaves the station incurs a 1 point penalty (-1). If the team times out (one hour), any targets not yet engaged do not count as failure to engage.

    Before the team leaves the station for the transit, both rifles must be completely unloaded and verified "CLEAR" by the RO before the shooters can leave the shoot position. While in transit, rifles and carbines must be carried or slung muzzle straight up or straight down. Muzzle violations may result in a DQ.

    If the team finishes before the time limit, they earn one point per minute early, rounded up to the next whole minute. EG, if they finish at 53:46, 60-53 = 7 points.

    It is the team's responsibility to effectively identify and communicate the target they are shooting at to the RO. The RO's HIT/MISS call is final.

    If a team is overtaken by the team that started behind them, they are to immediately cease shooting, move out of the way, and wait while they are overtaken. At this point the overtaken team's stage is finished just the same as if they timed out.


    These are scored TIME PLUS. Shooters must stay close together (3 paces) at all times. The RO will communicate the safe fire directions. This becomes the "180". Carbines shall not be pointed in directions other than those as communication by the RO. Failure to comply may result in a DQ. The assault stages are populated with cardboard IPSC/USPSA targets. These may be neutralized by: 1 A hit; two hits in the B+C zones; or any combination of four hits anywhere on the target. Any targets hit but not neutralized will incur a 10 second FTN penalty. Any targets not hit at all will incur a 30 second UNHIT penalty. Any no-shoot (white) targets hit will incur a 30 second penalty. "Breaking the perf" is what determines a hit in the respective zone. No team member may engage more than 3 targets in a row without the other team member engaging at least one target. Procedural penalty +30 seconds. For safety, before a transition from one team member shooter to the other team member shooting, the carbine must be placed on "safe", the muzzle must be pointed towards the ground, and there must be a clear audible communication that the other shooter may engage. Only at that time may the second team member take his carbine off safe and engage his up to 3 targets.


    Scoring time plus. Rifle shooter to engage array of 5 targets. Unlimited rounds. Each time the rifle shooter misses, the carbine shooter must hit the 3 carbine targets before the rifle shooter can continue. Any rifle target not hit +30. Any carbine not hit +30. Max time 300 seconds.


    Par time. Rifle shooter must engage the targets matching the description per the team's briefing. Each "correct" target hit is 1 point. Each incorrect target hit is a 3 point penalty (-3). Rifle shooter may only use one round to engage each target.


    Par time. Carbine shooter must engage the targets according to the provided instructions that specify target ID and shooting order. Instructions will be provided to the Rifle shooter only and he must retain them and stay at his position, while the carbine shooter must stay in his box. Team may communicate at will, but neither may leave their positions. Targets must be hit in the order specified. Each target hit in the specified order is 1 point. Each target skipped or hit on the wrong order is minus one point.
  15. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Also, Stages 7 (Teamwork), 8 (Night 1), and 9 (Night 2) will be worth 50 match points a piece.

    In summary: Field 1-3, worth 200 match points each; Assault 1-3 worth 100 each; 7-9 50 each. Total match points possible, 1050.

    If there are any teams who earn a negative point value on any stage, the "zero point" for the stage will be stretched down to their score, so that 0% matches the lowest score on the stage (if less than 0) and 100% matches the highest score. For example, if the best score on Field 1 is 39 (Team A) and the worst is -7 (Team B), and Team C shot a 23:

    Team A gets 200 match points from the stage
    Team B gets 0 match points
    Team C gets 130.4 match points
  16. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Also, it is likely there will be some carbine targets beyond 400 yards.
  17. Tim Pack II New Member

    Tim Pack II
    This is going to be Epic!
  18. Austin Angus New Member

    • Thunder Beast Shooter
    Austin Angus
    Gonna be awesome!
  19. Zak Smith Operations

    • Instructor
    Zak Smith
    Shooters' meeting has been moved back to 5pm on Thursday.
  20. John Murphy New Member

    John Murphy
    Are the posted expected round counts for rifle and carbine still correct?

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